Here's the thing, poker without bankroll management is just gambling. In every game of skill where you have to invest resources to see returns investing too much of them nullifies the skill factor (be it sports betting, trading or building your own company). Aggressive shots and playing underrolled both have its place in winning poker strategy, but it's getting tricky when you don't intend to replenish your bankroll in the worse case scenario. Also, like the great Tommy Angelo once said: "bankroll management is like buying mental insurance" so if you have a problem losing 8$ at NL25 you clearly shouldn't be playing NL25. Good luck sir!

Poker is always gambling. Good BR management does not ever stop that being the case. Yes it increases your chances of not going bust, ride variance, leverage your skill edge etc but I feel like to deny that fact is a mental leak. Its not gambling like anything roulette. Its more like Sports Betting or Horses as you mention. Your job is to be better than the other punters.

I'm not 'taking a shot' towards anything I just decided to donk around as a rec player at NL25. Its not a winning poker strategy. I have no issues with losing $8 at any limit beyond the fact that if I do I'd be quitting poker. The money means nothing to me but to start being a depositing player is not something I'm prepared to do. I've been playing the same freeroll now for years without going broke. I'm no nearer or farther away from making money at the game. The only reason I would move down would be to draw this game out longer. I'm not going to be at NL50 by the end of this year or whatever, no matter what I do. There is a positive impact of poker in that it stops me spending my evenings doing something more expensive and I think it has helped make some big strides in my mental game in the last few months. I've been putting my energy into that more than learning poker and the change has been really noticable.

So the question of moving to different limits is not one of is it gambling or not, or does it help me on my journey to poker stardom or not. Its purely do I want to carry on with the game or not. I think that I do, on the opportunity cost element of poker, on the continuing little training exercises in mental discipline. I think the underlying fact that made me go rec player is still true. Simply I'm never going to be driven to be good enough to win in modern online poker at any decent limit. One view on that had me play a higher limit on less tables and try and have fun over getting a good winrate, come what may (and what would come would be end of my years of poker). The other option would be just play lowest stakes, try and have fun there.

Trying to get good, and the effort/time and mental resource involved would be a big -EV in overall money earned lifewise, and I think that is true for most anyone. If you can do that, then you can do anything and there are loads of better ways to make a living. Unless you have a massive social anxiety or physical impairment, or possibly historical barrier (like ex-con or total lack of education before you got your shit together) that means you can't deploy your mental focus, speed of thought, math skills, psychology and drive to win in a more lucrative field, then the $3k you won playing NL50 is actually a beat if money is your object. If you are doing it for other reasons as I am and you can win monies then well played you, what a bonus.

I think on balance I get enough enjoyment out of the game that I don't want to go bust though so I will be moving to NL2 or NL5. I'm also going hard for the BR competition in the HH forum. I hope this post doesn't come across as negative or defensive @MattVIP , as it really isn't and your advice has been very helpful in the journey to this point but where I've ended is not some degen, underrolled going for broke to win the big bucks. I'm chilled, centred, for possibly the first time since I was a child and this has me looking at the game in a different way.

TLDR - Yeah fair point, I'm climbing back down to NL5. Not looking to move up so no BR strategy for the future. I'm going to win the HH competition and that BR I will do something fun. Perhaps leave it up to the forum what I do. Style, game type and stake and make a video series with it. Something to make it more to me than just poker, so there is an experience I can take from it.

Love to all on PokerVIP, you're all awesome in various different ways!

Looks like you have given up tbh Paul.

That is completely fine but answer me this: how much did you really do to get good? Because you say you'd never be able to beat 50nl this year whatever you do and this is the biggest pile of bullshit ever. You could easily do it if you wanted it enough, but from the rest of your post it's -EV so whatever.

Yeah that's exactly my point Nick, I never did 'enough' to get better because 'enough' is a huge commitment. I could do it if I wanted it enough like you do. But I don't and never will be willing to do the hard work required to get better. That's all I mean. I'm sure if I threw myself into it, on the study group, building lots a ranges, working on flop textures etc I could improve and maybe one day beat NL50 as a arbitrary reference point. That's not bullshit that is an accurate reflection of what sacrifice I'm willing to make vs whats required.

The -EV bit is poker learning vs putting that energy and development into my work or physical/mental health. I could make a lot more money/happiness/energy doing that than I could putting the off table hours in to beat micro stakes poker. That is not be true for everyone but it definitely is for me.

In fact even being on here at 10am is a beat but I enjoy it here. Enjoyment is all I'm in it for really. I'm not giving up, my mind is clear enough now to see that I never actually started if the objective was to be better at poker. I really enjoy chatting with you and that post sounds angry though. I'm not chucking shade on what you do. I think its role model, reminds me of a guy on 2+2 called the Definate Article I think. If you want to be better and improve you're an incredible example. I just realise talking to you that I don't have the attitude you have towards the work.

I'll keep playing and posting and thinking about what I do, sometimes I will fancy doing some learning or a concept will make me want to explore. I'm just not interested enough to be great.

Sometimes things become clearer the less you think about it

Just YOLO it all on black and see how you feel buddy. Enjoy the game and good things will happen!

You are casting shade on what I do:

Trying to get good, and the effort/time and mental resource involved would be a big -EV in overall money earned lifewise, and I think that is true for most anyone. If you can do that, then you can do anything and there are loads of better ways to make a living. Unless you have a massive social anxiety or physical impairment, or possibly historical barrier (like ex-con or total lack of education before you got your shit together) that means you can't deploy your mental focus, speed of thought, math skills, psychology and drive to win in a more lucrative field, then the $3k you won playing NL50 is actually a beat if money is your object. If you are doing it for other reasons as I am and you can win monies then well played you, what a bonus.

1. Poker is a game where to start with you lose or make very little. You then make a little more a little more and if you quit then then yeah money wise it's hugely -EV. If you don't stop there and push to beat even 100nl and play 60k hands/month you can make €3,000/month tax free... €36,000/year tax free is what like €55k if it was taxed? Then double that for 200nl... Not really -EV when you consider you can do what ever you please for a far longer time, don't have to pay for work travel etx.

2. You could do a lot of things, but very few if them give you the personal freedom poker can. Trading is something I think is the same as this, you can be your own boss.

3. This is just bullshit about social anxiety blah blah blah, if I wanted to play poker and trade for a living or similar because I enjoy it more than my current 9-5 and i can make similar then it's a very very clear choice- you'd be an idiot to continue working really.

Also, you can improve massively by putting in 15 mins a day. Put in your btn range and bb calling range to combinator (1min once savedranges ). Put in the board. Group all of villain strong hands, then his mid strength hands, then draws then air (3-5mins depending on board) now you can see if the board is good to bluff at or not. If it is a board he has lots of mid strength hands etc. Then write out a simply plan eg: triple barrel spot with good blockers as villain has lots of mid strength hands or take stab with only good blockers check back mid strength hands. Do that once a day slightly siffwnrt spot/board and you will be able to beat 50nl bg the end of the year.

I'm sorry you see it that way, I have no control how you view what I said, but its just my opinion, man, to misquote The Dude.

I genuinely hope you smash it, I never have any doubt that you'll do well. If you end up as a mid stakes crusher all the better. I wish I had your self belief and determination.

I was talking about most people, just donking about, 'trying to get out of the micros' but not really focussed on learning or improving. Sometimes ekeing out a small transient profit in a game that could be legislated to death at a moments notice. Putting, as I have hours and hours in that would have returned a higher EV working on your actual job or health. Oh course some people make it and it was all worthwhile, some people become pro gamers on Call of Duty, some musicians get a record deal, some non league footballers become Jamie Vardy. Those people worked their balls off to improve and good luck to them. That doesn't mean its a better EV choice for 99.9% of the population or that someone choosing to focus on their job or health is an idiot.

I do it because I enjoy it, because it helped me work on some serious mental flaws, because it was cheaper than my other hobbies once I learnt I could be break even. Not to be able to go pro.

You are not most people though. You are more focussed and clearer on purpose than most. It might still not be enough but I hope that it will be.

Pls, don't stop guys. I really enjoy reading this.
Thank you!

I know you didn't mean it in a nasty way, I'm more disappointed for you that your at this stage. You've obz hit a wall and frustrated at getting stuck between 10nl and 25nl. I've had the same between 50nl and 100nl for two years and it's horrible, but if you think how little work you and most 25nl regs do you can see how easy it is to gain an edge!

I think it is almost inevitable you go broke (poker br wise ) in your current mindframe. I guess I'm the kind of person who sees no point going halfway into something, it's either done 100% or not at all.

Like literally 15mins/day would see you be better than 99% of the 25nl field in about 2 months, hardly hard work and a big commitment

Jajajajajaja, OK OK.

I've not hit a wall this time though I remember the feeling trying to land at NL10. I've never beaten NL10 really (2bb/100) let alone NL25. I'm just playing NL25 for entertainment. Or at least I was. I'm now going back to NL5 for a while. I'll put in those 15 mins a day. On the days that I play. I won't be doing so many hours but maybe those I do will be more productive.

Glad that got sorted out without any need for popcorn.

Haha I like watching drama not creating it (unless the poster is a c*nt!)

Obz it is important you do what makes poker fun for you, iblodt 2bi last night but enjoyed playing so it's whatever. Last week I had a session I won 1bi but didn't enjoy it and I wasn't satisfied with the result, so enjoyment is a huge part of playing well and being able to take the good with the bad.

That being said, playing at 25nl underolled when you have spent so long working on bankroll management and playing games you can beat, would probably not been fun. There would have always been a part of you that hated yourself for doing it - like a bad habit.

I know you're not trying to improve loads right now, but what is your play : study ratio roughly? Interested to see

Yeah the NL25 thing was a bad idea and once I lost a couple of buy ins that became clear, hence why back to lower stakes.

Actually my current ratio might look alright if you include all the HH I'm doing at the minute for the competition! I'm normally a bit like you in terms of all in or all out

Leaving that to one side my play week at the moment would be 5 hours play over 5 sessions, maybe 1 hour of study but none of that is especially focused as it includes all my warms ups for those 5 sessiosn and maybe a video watched on VIP. Its probably better than it normally is but only because I'm not playing much at the minute!

Yeah, 80:20 ratio is what is recommended for a top pro who has learnt so much and performs so well and his 1 hour study will be very specific looking at one player on one part of his game.

I probably have a 60:40 ratio right now despite (possibly) being better than you whilst also having a full time job, cricket on the weekend etc. (Not meant to be a brag lol). That also would include my warm ups/warm downs but in my warm up I often include some focussed study also.

I know you're not in the mindset of improving loads at poker atm, so this point is not soo much for you but I find it so funny when people complain about losing and get tired of playing and think that they somehow magically got bad. Then you ask "How much do you study?" and they answer maybe once or twice a week- which will be looking at bad beat spots lol. Then you ask what were you studying before when you were winning and they would say 2-3 hours/week on xyz. Like if you can see that correlation then poker really isn't for you Like I said not so much for your situation, but just saying for the sake of saying

Yeah I know, its the same as the 'you know its funnier the harder I work the luckier I get' or 'education doesn't guarantee you'll find success but it takes you closer to where success was last seen'. I just made that last one up but I kind of like it now.

Hang on 2 secs.




I'm not falling out of love with the game due to losing though. I win some and then I lose some but thats it. I'm having a bit of an existential crisis where I look at everything I'm doing and challenge on whats the point. I think there is a good chance that I will regain the fire for learning and development. I need a new focus for why to play. Mental resiliance was a big bit and working on depressive thoughts and I've made good progress but once I did that I think it became clear that was the reason I was playing. I guess in the end thats what will get me back, even as I type this some pieces are clicking. If I stop after making that progress I'm as bad as the guy losing at poker again. I improve so I stop working on the area that helped me improve, and so regress.

Interesting. Hmm.

THe place you are now seems so familiar Paul.
Non poker wise but I have been there many times in my life .
What helps me when I am in those cases is running and meditating.
I would suggest you to step off abit in your mind about who you are as a poker player.
Must admit that I havent read all 40+ pages of your blog so perhaps I am shooting in blind here but I think its worth giving a shot.
From what I read in last few posts I see a guy who had high expectations towards the game and has now landed on hard floor face up.
Out of frustration is doing sometihng ridicilus and trying to convince himself and others that what is he doing is logical.
And whilst you have all the right to do whatever you want (its your money afterall), once you "sober out" you will see its was pretty foolish and illogical.
I hope you see the immaturity of that. We have all been there at some point in life.I wish I can say I dont do similar idiotisms at poker table.
Playing for 10 or 25$ will in most cases very hardly make a living ,so regardless of what our aim for the future are, I belive its very safe bet to treat this as a hobby.This way its way less stress and more enoyment towards the game.
I realise you mentioned few times above that this is your hobby, however I also did noticed that you wrote some stuff that are clearly showing that you identify poker as a investement and source of income in your life.
And as that its always guaranteed to bring huuuge amount of stress, dissbelif and drain self confidence of you .Couse as I said nl10 players as we are , are simply not mature enough (poker maturity) and skillfull enough(again poker skill) to be pros.
Also about those other non poker related "jobs" that are more EV than poker you mentioned , I would say that you are 100% correct, but at same time writing all this about poker makes me think that you dont know what else you want to do besides playing poker, so I would advice you that until you find your "other" thing , you stick with what you know you like ( playing poker ) and dont waist energy on forcing yourself to find secred pot of gold.
When it comes grab it but while it doesnt ,develop yourself as a poker player.
THis is probably my longest post on this forum and I know I said lot of things, out of which some may not be true, however its how I see situation and since I like receiveing doze of brutal honesty when I have a lot of mental farts I like to give it to other ppl when oportunity is right.
Some ppl are ofended by it, but I see it more as sign of imaturity and inability to accept critics.
I hope you understand that everyting I wrote is good faith and never want to ofend you in any way.
Cheers

^^ Couldn't be further from the point LOL

It doesnt look like that to me ,however if I am wrong I am somehow happy to be it .
Well if thats the case I lost 10 mins for writing it in waist

Sorry, I haven't read all of what has been posted lately (tl;dr lol), but I just want to say that pushing poker thing further because it may pay off with tons of tax free money doesn't mean that it is +EV decision.

Paul never really went into this to become pro and is doing it half for fun and the challenge half seriously, which I think is a great approach.

Recently I believe he has lost motivation because he has plateaued and is looking for either the enjoyment of playing again or something to respark his motivation.

I just think you were a bit too synical around the "expected loads out of poker and feel flat on his face." He did neither and I don't think ever really had one of these approaches.

@MilfGrinder although I agree, your point is coming from a recently negative run and not successful run at playing poker full time to support yourself soooo gonna take your point with a grain of salt If you are satisfied making $3k/year playing 25nl putting in 30 hours/month and you enjoy it that is +EV and pays part way towards a car holiday etc.

@CrazyCookie I wouldn't say that it comes out of negative run, I'd say it comes from experience. If one runs good at life / business / poker etc. - he doesn't really learn much as euphony of "love life" blinds you. It's our failures where we actually improve and put things in right perspective. But on the other hand, what one considers a happy life other might consider junk, so it's wrong to talk in absolutes.