Grocker6

Ok guys, so this is the question that we will all ask ourselves from time to time.
I kinda know the answer I'll get and people say it's silly for asking but from my EXPERIENCE backing up this then I still think it's ok to ask.
When playing at these NL10 games vs tight solid regs, us guys know what we see and don't see after playing thousands upon thousands of hands.
I ask this question to you... is this a spot we can ever fold KK?
It's not the absolute perfect spot as we weren't actually raising from UTG.
There are many regs that won't 3bet UTG with AK. MP they can from BTN a lot more, however they know when they face a 4bet from UTG or MP, if they're 5bet shipping it then in my experience I never expect to see AK, or QQ here from this player type in particular at 10NL. These stakes, the tight regs don't GII as quick and easily as you might see up at pro stakes.
Quite a few occasions I've sighed and said, well they have AA here considering the positions and action because nothing else makes sense with these guys.
And then they turn it over, time after time. Maybe I'm just unlucky in that respect, or does my experience seem to be backed up by anyone elses?
TBH though, this was just a bad table, but even so. From specifics we can mention vs specific player types, there has to be something to say about it.

It's a sick spot, what more can I say, and this keeps on happening.

doubtless(SB) $10.20 - VP:25 PFR:22 AF:2.9 W:29|43 STL:47|75 3B:12|43 CB:75|31 N:-19.19 Hands:771
MorDaa(BB) $13.46 - VP:20 PFR:14 AF:1.7 W:38|60 STL:38|80 3B:5|50 CB:38|36 N:21.28 Hands:434
Me(MP) $10.15
ALEXA69(UTG) $23.02 - VP:26 PFR:20 AF:5.5 W:18|63 STL:64|69 3B:6|32 CB:74|39 N:-2.11 Hands:683
ghersergiu(CO) $11.20 - VP:26 PFR:20 AF:2.5 W:28|63 STL:58|72 3B:8|54 CB:57|24 N:22.08 Hands:713
TSorVR(BTN) $11.68 - VP:20 PFR:17 AF:3.0 W:31|75 STL:50|84 3B:6|62 CB:67|40 N:12.96 Hands:275

Pre Flop: Me(MP) with [Ks,Kc]
ALEXA69(UTG) folds,
Me(MP) raises 0.30,
ghersergiu(CO) folds,
TSorVR(BTN) raises 0.90,
doubtless(SB) folds,
MorDaa(BB) folds,
Me(MP) raises to 2.00,
TSorVR(BTN) raises 10.78,
Me(MP) calls 7.95

Last Post 7 years ago by

fergrberger

Posts

1,673

Views

Copy post URL

https://www.pokervip.com/thread/view?forum=poker-strategy&slug=nl10-kk-50&nav=574587a0d390438d518b45fc

If you're ever feeling like you've got some evidence that KK might be a fold then you shouldn't be 4 betting in the first place.

I played a lot of full ring in the past and getting 3 bet by a nit when opening UTG with KK is a spot you need to tread carefully, but in a 6 max game vs a reg you've got to go with it. As a population read there are still enough players out there stacking QQ+ AK pre for 100bb for it to be the only move.

Do you have your HUD pop ups set up to show 3 bet vs each position? If you had a few thousand hands on a player and could see he only 3 bets KK+ vs UTG then just call his reraise. But that's gonna be a really rare spot.

@Turlock Sadly Hold'em Indicator won't show specifics about position. It would be good and I will hopefully purchase PT4 when I can as I feel I could do very well with knowing those specifics.

For 100bb, vs non uber nit, you cannot fold KK. Its a question thats been asked repeatedly on every poker site for a decade for a reason though. Namely AA is a big bit of peoples stack of range and if you hold KK you block a lot of AK so sometimes you get it in bad. But even with that being true you can't fold. You can fold KK pre though I think. Vs cold 4bet from nit maybe when you opened UTG you can fold maybe. I folded KK pre the other day in a multiway 4bet pot and got to see I was right but its not often gonna happen.

Can't see me folding KK very often preflop HU unless the guy is like 8/2/0 over 500 hands. My question would be why 4bet if we are looking to fold, that feels like we're bluff 4betting with KK, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And we have suckout equity anyway!

Running into a few doesn't mean it's always the case because it definitely isn't so. I tilted a 18/12 by pushing him around and he shoved 66 in my face preflop. Dynamics/history etc come into play as well is what I'm trying to say. Not saying that's part of this situation, just opening the door for a bit wider range is all.

Just my opinion and don't even know if it makes proper sense, but that's how I think of it.

Relevant information here is your stats. It is not what he has, it is what he thinks you are 4 betting with that decides how you play. If he thinks you have QQ KK or AA only, then KK is a fold, if he thinks you have TT+ AQo+ AJs+ and some A4s T9s etc. then KK is an easy get it in. I am not saying you are this wide in your open / 4b range, but you get the idea.

I don't think we can ever realistically consider folding KK preflop heads up when we are 100BB deep so the short answer to your question here is no, we call here 100% of the time. Obviously you are going to up against AA here reasonably often but that is not to say villain can't show up with worse. The most relevant point here IMO though is that it's a spot where everyone should be going broke, so in the long run these types of spots will balance out.

I have folded KK pre once in my life where we were 200BB deep, three people were involved in the hand and I was 5bet jammed on and there was a caller before I acted. This hand actually hammers my above point home though, the player that 5 bet jammed shipped 200BB's in pre with TT. People are pretty atrocious in general so assuming that people are making logical, well thought out decisions is a pretty big mistake at these limits. It's just one of those hands where you shrug and move on to the next hand.

Also - First post hype!!

fergrberger: Also - First post hype!! :)

Hey there! Welcome to PokerVIP!

Also in reply to this thread. Of course I didn't fold, but like to bring it up anyway. All things should be debated so it's cool.

Thanks! BTW - It's Fergal here, I was chatting to you yesterday via Skype

fergrberger: Thanks! BTW - It's Fergal here, I was chatting to you yesterday via Skype :)

I know it's you mate

Did you know of this site before hand?

Awesome to see you around!

I was vaguely aware of it but I was not an active user at all. I've watched a handful of the videos in the past, I wasn't aware of the forum sections though.

Add your "Room Name" username and register with PokerVIP