What holds you back?

Posted 8 years ago

I made this post on Reddit today and it seemed to go down well so I thought I'd share it here too.

If you're a ring game player treading water, what do you think are the factors that are preventing you from progressing?
I have worked with a bunch of different types of player/people for over 18 months and I am starting to see many common problems that no doubt tonnes of other players have.
These are in no particular order.

Sense of entitlement:

I have seen so many players that have a real problem in this area. They get to a position where their HUD stats look pretty good and assume that should make them a winning player.
They are dismissive and disrespectful of players they deem inferior to them and then struggle to deal with losses mentally. They also suffer quite badly from injustice tilt when they're not winning, believing that they shouldn't be losing to fish or whatever.
When we look over hands that they have played against the weaker players, we can usually find plenty of mistakes that can be attributed to tilt/being unable to handle losing.
Just because you have managed to model your game to have pre flop stats you think look good, it doesn't mean you can take your eye off the ball. Pre flop is a relatively small part of the game, don't allow yourself to take your foot off the pedal once you're happy with how your stats look.

Rushing decisions:

I watch lots of videos of people playing and something I see way too much of is players making snap decisions all the time, despite being under absolutely no timebank pressure.
I think a lot of this can be attributed to a fear of failure. It can be damaging enough to our mental state to lose at poker but when we lose despite trying our very best, that can really deflate a lot of ego's.
I genuinely believe most players aren't trying their best when they play. This might sound weird but it's true. Focusing really hard when playing is tough. It gets even tougher when often times, you're not even sure what you need to be thinking about, so rather than confront that, many players just default to really moderate 'standard' lines to avoid having to deal with the fact that they're not as good as they want to be or think they are.

Admitting that to yourself can be a very hard thing and that is a huge factor in why many players underachieve IMO.

Overburdening yourself:

Players learn how to play, maybe to a level where when they're focused, they can play to a relatively high standard but then burden themselves with too many tables, or by playing a limit where their skill advantage is minimal, or maybe even non existent. The constant narrative to push, push, push works for some people but I would say, not the majority of people.
Many players come into poker as a hobby or a pastime, then some realise they could make an extra bit of pocket money from something they enjoy and eventually end up turning something that was fun into some crappy paid 'job' they barely enjoy and ruin what could have been something quite pleasant.

Short term result orientation:

Are you one of those guys that regularly checks your tracking software or cashier when you play? When I watch video's of people playing and see them doing that, I never get a good answer as to why they're doing it.
It can encourage us to quit good games early when we're winning or stay in bad games too long when we're losing. Everyone knows short term results don't matter but probably the majority of us still check how we're doing intermittently every session when there is no upside to doing so.
If we're well rolled, how we're doing in any given session shouldn't matter to use at all. If we're scared money due to bankroll pressure or not knowing if we're a winning player in the games we choose, it's a game selection/BRM issue. If you find yourself doing this regularly, re-assess your BRM and game selection methods.

Poor goal setting:

Too many players set financial goals without having much of a plan of how to achieve them. We should think more about setting process related goals. Setting a goal to help you achieve more consistent performances will be way more useful and productive than just saying "I want to make $1k this month and to achieve that I'm going to play 100k hands"
A lot of the goals I set are around ensuring I'm playing to my strengths and working on improving my weaknesses. For example, this month, I'm starting out just two tabling speed poker with a focus on ensuring I give every hand I'm involved in my full attention as I have been playing without focus a lot recently.
I have set some rules to govern this. So, for example, if I find I rushed a hand, I give myself a warning that I might be losing focus. If I don't regain focus quickly, I have to end my session. I refuse to sleepwalk through any session this month.
This might have an effect on my volume but hopefully this will be more than offset by playing much better and helping me train my mental muscle so I can work towards playing longer sessions with improved concentration.

I'm sure there are loads of other unique quirks that hold players back. Hopefully this thread will encourage people to think about what holds them back and share it with the community.
Whatever is holding you back will have held someone else back at some time or other and reading how they overcame it might be the trigger for you to take a big step forward.
Jon-PokerVIP

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Posted 8 years ago
Well described Regi!

Posted 8 years ago
Really like this thread and plan on responding as I suffer from more than one of these. Me and the guys in the staking team talk a lot about mental game stuff and what causes tilt and managing it so this really fits in with that. I just don't have the time at the moment, but want to follow this
to see where it goes.

NIce Job!
Posted 8 years ago
I started to type a reply to this out last night but worded it all wrong so I will try my best now -

You have pretty much summed it all up but I will add in some of my thoughts and what I have told a lot of players over the years:

Poker is dead: It is not - there is still tons of money to be made but people use this as an excuse. It is no different to not wanting to go to the gym because it is quite or you are tired...its just a simple excuse.

Variance: Yes variance can be a killer but again people can rely on this as another excuse.

Not enough money; This one always made me laugh as once a mate said to me "If I had as much money as you I would be a better poker player than you..." I was a little cocky back then and replied "If you was as good as me you would have more money than me"........Harsh but true. Its not like i was given a lump of money and then just broke even for 10 years type thing. Like everyone we have to build it up and try to make sure we don't lose lots by doing dumb things.

Not enough time: Fair and makes sense as long as the time you do have you put 1000% effort into which we all know is generally not the case. As a player or as anyone learning something we need time to do so. We cannot rush into it just like you can't rush into fitting a car with an exhaust when you have only ever fixed a bike previously.

Mindset: Yep I agree this is many peoples failings and everyone is effected by it one way or another. If you cannot be cool under pressure poker is simply not for you however like everything you can learn how to improve this.

Dedication: Going to a casino or just playing some hands online now and then will never turn you into a pro. If you are not doing this correctly you will never be good enough.

Skill level: Some people will simply never be able to beat poker and this will come down to a ton of different reasons but to sum it up they will just not be good enough. Again this can be improved on and it all depends on what you want. Example: We do not like at a division 2 football player as a failure he is just simply not good enough for the Premiership HOWEVER he still does what he loves, makes plenty of money and has a solid career. Find your lane, be happy and make sure you always at least try to maintain the skill level required.

All in all I would generally say the things which stops people achieving is

- Bad decision making.
- Laziness.
- Tilt.
- Trying to run before they can walk.

Rant over Smile
Posted 8 years ago
Got some time now, so gonna respond a bit to these and in the process see if I think of any others.

Sense of entitlement:

I have seen so many players that have a real problem in this area. They get to a position where their HUD stats look pretty good and assume that should make them a winning player.
They are dismissive and disrespectful of players they deem inferior to them and then struggle to deal with losses mentally. They also suffer quite badly from injustice tilt when they're not winning, believing that they shouldn't be losing to fish or whatever.
When we look over hands that they have played against the weaker players, we can usually find plenty of mistakes that can be attributed to tilt/being unable to handle losing.
Just because you have managed to model your game to have pre flop stats you think look good, it doesn't mean you can take your eye off the ball. Pre flop is a relatively small part of the game, don't allow yourself to take your foot off the pedal once you're happy with how your stats look.


This was tough one. I knew immediately that I was guilty of this one, but I actually took exception at first. I think for 2 reasons. 1 because it was a little blunt and in your face and 2. Because I do do it and so it was hard to face. It took talking with one of the guys on the team to realize I do it some of it more than I thought.

I don't really pay attention to the stats thing so much. I do understand that stats and numbers are important as they can help point out leaks in our games. However, my basic understanding of some of those numbers, is that a certain stat being in a certain range is an ideal thing, like in a vacuum or against good opponents who are starting to lean towards playing a more optimal, mathematical strategy. If you are constantly playing against recreational players who range from super nitty to total aggro maniacs, who play close to 100% of their hands, then your stats could end up being all over the place, as you need to play all of them differently. Granted, over time, they should probably come back to some sort of mean, but that still doesn't mean you are winning player. To see that there is only one stat that matters, your win rate.

Where I am most guilty of this is being disrespectful to those players and feeling like I should beat them all the time. Allowing it to tilt me and get me frustrated and angry and off my game when I don't beat them. Just because they sometimes shove with ATC, doesn't mean you are going to win every hand against them. I wouldn't say I get dismissive because I know I will suffer bad beats and coolers from time to time and sometimes more than I like. Its so easy to start calling them names in your head and judging their play, thinking they are idiots and stupid for doing what they do. Just going totally mental when they start to chip away at your bankroll, winning hand after hand, lady luck just smiling down at them.

I think to combat this, I am going to start by not calling them some of the names we use, like fish, whale and maniac, unless it is used purely to identify a playing style and not in a derogatory sense. I think just calling them recreational or rec players or fun players is a good start. At the end of the day, its their game. Who am I to judge that playing style. If they want to play that way and they find it fun and enjoyable then more power to them. Secondly, when I do suffer a bad beat I am going to think about it differently. Regardless of the monetary outcome of a session I have with this recreational players, I need to be happy and thankful that these guys exist and are keeping poker alive. I need to be thankful that they are willing to come to the tables and sometimes expose their entire stack, or even their entire bankroll, as a 3 -1 or worse underdog and donate their money to the rest of us.

I had a hand with a rec player yesterday that makes a fine example. I literally just sat down at this table and it was my first hand. The poker gods smiled down at me and dealt me AA. It was an anonymous table and I had no dynamic or history and hadn't even really seen what had happened prior to my bb posting. CO open raised for 21.7bb. I looked at my pocket rockets and just decided to shove. My friend in the CO happily called my shove, so I was thinking he must have KK or AK or something like that, which I am still a huge favorite over, so I was feeling good. To my surprise this guy turns over J4s. Had I lost this hand I know I would have gone on tilt, not believing this guy would literally OR with that let alone call a shove. The thing is, I am suppose to win that hand like 8.5 times out of ten, however, I am going to lose it sometimes, so getting mad about it serves no purpose, its out of my control. I got it in almost the best I ever could have and that's all I can do. When I sat down this guy had almost 150bb stack. I took 100bb and proceeded to watch him spew the rest of it away in another 10 or 20 hands. I should be ecstatic this guy plays poker and that I am fortunate enough to have him at my table. Over the moon, that he is willing to stack off with almost anything. I shouldn't ever be judging, demeaning, getting angry at, or any other negative emotion with his play. To be clear too, I don't ever actually say anything to the players at the table, but that's not really the point is it. The point is it still affects me and takes me off game and believe that sometimes that is what they want.

Well this first one was a bit longer than I thought. Will do another post for the others
Posted 8 years ago
Excellent post and well thought out. I have linked this to a couple of friends who may get something useful out of it, thank you.
Posted 8 years ago
I don't play much cash these days, but I can definitely relate to some of those issues OP described - I think the main one for most is actually poor/non-existent planning - like setting profit targets, but not setting-out the steps required to get there, or how you are going to progress from one stage to the next.

Also, I agree with Jon's comments mostly, but I think it's dangerous to say that peeps simply "aren't good enough", as it sort of reinforces the myth of inherent ability and natural-talent, somewhat. (see "Bounce" and Gladwell's books for more on this topic) [the 10k hours theory] - practice makes perfect, and conditioning is honed through repetition. (see any martial-artists' display for proof of this) - but both practice and study (and indeed goal-setting) need to be relevant, and specific to what you're trying to achieve. Often, I think people are confused/somewhat conflicted about this. I have certainly been guilty of this myself, and it has hindered my progress.

PS: by "not good enough", I think Jon probably meant they weren't as good/effective as they could/should be, had they put more effort in to improving their game, rather than they simply aren't natural-born poker-players or whatever.

My own main issues are my health and general well-being often get in the way of my plans and aspirations, I have switched formats too often rather than mastering one, and I really struggle with certain mental-game issues tbh - my main tilt-profile problems are technical glitches (eg: OPL thread :)), and slow-acting players pre-flop (in mtts)(this really boils my piss tbh, as it's like I can feel my tourney-equity being frittered away by sommat I have no control over, and it can definitely decrease my focus, upsetting my 'flow' state, resulting in occasional poor decision making) [I would deffo recommend filling out this form btw for peeps looking to improve their mental-game skillset - I got it from Jared Tendler's webinar with Jonathan Little a while ago - unsure if it's still there, but prolly available somewhere]

(would love to hear others' thoughts/advice on this if anyone has any good insight btw)

Lastly, I would say that having a dream can, in itself, be very empowering [credit to Evan J for that], and seeking out peers that provide positive assistance/vibes is important. The journey/process should be as important as the desired destination, and having friends that share similar aspirations can make the process much more enjoyable - poker can be a lonely/frustrating pursuit at times, and being part of a 'team' generally feels good, even for Lone-Wolf types like myself. In love
Posted 8 years ago
Rushing decisions if probably what most hold me back , I like to play lots of tables , actually playing 6 tables of zoom poker. I can make a huge volume (7k to 10k hands / day) . in microstakes i can get away with some standard decisions , but for sure i'll need to play less tables and take more time when I grow up in stakes .... or maybe i should be doing that right now ?!
Posted 8 years ago*
This might be related to what Jon said about that not everybody will be good enough in poker, but I would say that lack of talent is one thing that prevents people improving. By talent I mean intelligence, the ability to perform under stress, work ethic and people skills, resilience and the ability to hande failures and disappointments. I know that we do not want to think about that, but it is true. To be really successful in Poker, you have to be talented. Many people say that you can achieve anything what you want if you work hard enough. This is not true.For instance I would never be a world class level athelete no matter how much I would have trained. To be really good at something, you have to be talented AND you must have excellent work ethic. YOU NEED BOTH. I remember reading from one finnish poker book that your chances to achieve the professional skill level is something like 1%. This means, that 99% who try it will fail. It is just very likely, that you belong to that 99%( of course this is true in my case as well).. The book is pretty old and was published in 2005 I think, so maybe it is a different story now. Still, think about it.

But, as Jon said, you do not have to be professional level to make some money by playing poker. It can be a fun hobby that gives you almost infinite possibilities to learn and improve AND some extra money. How many hobbies can do that? Yeah, it will be very unlikely that you will become a professional, but you do not know if you don´t even try. Maybe you can make enough money to be a semi-professional OR your own limits allow you to achieve that level if you work hard?

This is wonderful game, and a fun journey with all the ups and dows. I know that I have no chance against the really talented math and logic wizards with the IQ of 130+ but I also know that people like this are kinda rare.
Posted 8 years ago
TrueFriend very interesting , in my case I dont want to be the best in the world , just being a reg on nl50 or nl100 whould be more then enought for my lifestyle. But unfortunately for 4 years playing im still stuck on microstakes ... all the time I watch coaching videos from ppl on 200nl saying that theres only fishes there and its easy ... kinda hard to listen that Laugh
Posted 8 years ago
I used to dream about becoming poker pro, and I totally burned myself out. I took years before I found my passion to the game again. For this reason, it is important to be realistic, BUT have a positive mindset at the same time. When I talked about talent, I ment the limits we have. It is totally impossible to say where they are if you do not try, and that´s why it is so fun to compete in sports, computer games or poker! How long it takes to reach your limits? Who knows? Maybe a lifetime? This is my goal now. I want to be the best player I can be. On the other words, I want to learn as much as is possible for me. It is much more fun and rewarding experience with that attidute. And, I can make some money by playing poker! Not much, but enough to buy new shoes or something like that occasionally :)!

My previous post was maybe a bit depressing and negative, and it was not my intention. I just wanted to say that be kind to yourself, poker is a very difficult game, and becoming a decent player is difficult too. Many people (even the best players of the world) will struggle with it at times.

About what you say about coaching videos...well, if the coach says something like that he does not really understand how it feels to be an average poker student. Most likely he is really talented, and therefore the game is easy for him. It is not true for us average poker students.
Posted 8 years ago
lucasboleli: TrueFriend very interesting , in my case I dont want to be the best in the world , just being a reg on nl50 or nl100 whould be more then enought for my lifestyle. But unfortunately for 4 years playing im still stuck on microstakes ... all the time I watch coaching videos from ppl on 200nl saying that theres only fishes there and its easy ... kinda hard to listen that :D


Your story is incredibly common and makes the best case possible for good game selection.

There will be tonnes of $5nl players on stars, breaking even whilst worse players from them will be beating higher stakes on softer sites.

I have always said that most nanostakes and microstakes players playing high volume and treading water would be better lowering their volume and playing higher stakes and I think it's getting more and more obvious that this should be the case as sites keep on refining their rewards programs to disadvantage these types of player even further.
Posted 8 years ago
Yeh softer sites are called that for a reason. I think too many people chase someone elses dream in the sense that yes somebody can crush somewhere but not everyone can. Find your own lane and stick in it!

I personally havn't used a HUD for the last 8 months or so now and am making more money than ever...