I wouldn't advise iPoker for paul! The games are just as tough as stars and the player pool is smaller so you end up playing more regs than at stars. The regular games don't run anywhere near as often so speed is your only option.

I'd advise somewhere like pkr, sky or unibet. The games are soft and the software is still good. I used to live by stars then moved around and realised that the software elsewhere is fine- its just an excuse to play stars, you can make way more money elsewhere and it just makes more sense!

My plan is to get to say 1/2 or 2/4 when it doesn't matter too much where you play as every reg is gonna be ok to good and fish be gambly then maybe move back to stars. Easier to get supernova at 400nl and more players to play.

This sounds kinda perfect. PokerStars is an amazing poker room... if you can get quick SuperNova. Otherwise, the value of playing there is kinda underwhelming.

I feel like after recent rake changes ipoker got softer, but I totally see your point. Sky sounds really amazing, but unfortunately they only accept 3 different nationalities so I wasn't able to check this room out for myself.

Would listen to cookies advice there as he has been on the same boat!

These sites ofc have smaller player pools, not as slick software and may be a bit more difficult to get your hands tracked/if at all BUT the games are so much softer, can get rb which boosts your profit and the regs are not that great.

Sky is super fishy I have played a bit there. No HUD though I think? Also I already have an account there I opened years ago for sports book. Can I still add it now and get RB?

I'll look at Unibet and PKR then for when I get done on Stars. As I say its just until I get the first $50 award. Thats 1000 points to get, next $50 is 5000 so then I leave every year.

Matt, I've not been doing better really. I am just playing worse opponents and hitting some cards vs fish. Time will tell I suppose. The meditation thing I know won't be overnight but I'm really hopeful about it. I did it before I had kids and it worked great for me then. This is just a nice excuse to return to it.

Daily update wise I'll do one tomorrow hopefully but I'm away with my wife for the long weekend. No interwebs where I'm going and no kids neither. I'll be zen as fuck when I get back.

There's no shame in playing against worse opponents. If you think about it this is at the core of every sport out there. And in case of poker having a bigger edge on your opponents is especially important because it not only makes your win rate higher but at the same time it makes downswings less severe. And since downswings often lead to bad play you're gaining even more bb/100 by having bad sessions less often.

Have a good weekend with your wife!

Stars game are definitely beatable. Also, i think playing tougher competition is good for your poker development.

^^ Probably the worse advice ever! I'm making the best poker improvements ever recently it has nothing to do what games I am playing! This is 100% a myth imo! Stars games are beatable yes but if I am looking to build a roll Stars is not happening andddd if I'm looking to have fun I find winning money off people more fun than either getting crushed or being at the mercy of variance with a small winrate.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Stars games up to any stake are betable there are some players who crush 500nl Zoom for 5bb/100. There is coach on Runitonce that beats 500nl Zoom at 2bb/100 over about 3 million hands with supernova Elite Rakeback this is a nice yearly income. Its just on stars you just need to put more work into your game which is definitely good for your poker development.

This does not mean you shouldn't play on softer sites when good games are available i have absolutely no problem with that. However, i think its best to diversify and play on multiple sites so you get the best of both worlds.

But in the end i guess it comes down to what you want out of poker.

Yeah but dude :') If your argument is that a coach can beat 500nl for 2bb/100 then I don't even have to argue! You can put in the same amount of work on other sites win at higher winrates and have lower variance. If you are looking to turn pro then playing stars is pretty dumb unless you already have SNE or have enough money in surplus for at least six months as the variance is going to ne huge with a winrate of 2bb/100!

IMHO the best poker development you do will be off the tables with coaches, doing your own evaluation of hands, working on your mental game etc.

It's like exams in school. To do well you have to revise and study hard get one on one help if you need and put in the hours. Now you take the exam whihc is the same as playing... but lets say that I gave you a test which was a lot harder than the test I gave everyone else but is marked the ame? Ie you get IDK a university standard test and everyone else gets high school tests but the grade are the same.... Now imagine you have a choice which exam to take. Why the fuck would you take the harder one? :') To prove you're better than other people? To improve on your game? Well 1: No one really cares what games anyone can beat anyway and if they did would they be more impressed with a rakeback grinder on stars who can make $100 +RB on stars or someone who can make $200/hour + RB on 6 softer sites? and 2: You improve your game with study and preparation not when you play. Being able to not lose to a reg isn't worth anything but being able to play fish and make money off them is worth $$$

Sorry if that isn't well worded- super tired but you gotta get the idea? haha

Just to illustrate my point:

25nl on Pokerstars




25nl on a softer site



I am getting more RB on this site and lower variance. Ok I ran shitty on stars at the end so it makes it look awful when if it flatline at 160k hands it's prons $1.5k profit with RB, but I have had the same size downswing and my new site and I ran pretty awful again but in 35% of hands I have made $350 or so more! My graph peak is about the same amount of $$$ on each butttt 100k hadns quicker on this site! And the variance difference is very clear to see

Oh and in regards to working on my game... I wasn't able to work on my game on stars with the mental game hurting me through variance and very little motivation to do anything on there. If you want to make money on stars you gotta grind right? Get the SNE wellll when you gonna study? It's making something that is already very hard harder

Very condescending off you to undermine an achievement of such a win rate at one of the toughest games in online poker. As for the best poker development thing people learn different ways. Isildur1 just played and look where he is or was. He was a terrible poker player to at the very beginning but got to be the best by playing the best in his own words.

What about Phil Ivey never even used a or any software and is the biggest winner in online poker history. This shows that not all people learn best the same way. Some learn by just playing, some learn by study of the tables, and some like me learn from learn from a combination of all methods, including playing, studying population tendencies and players, hand analysis training videos, using Gtorbe and Pokersnowie the works.

Also, you are forgetting, toughness of the games should not be your only consideration when choosing an online poker room far from it. There are other factors to consider.

These include, safety, reliability, and the software on other sites and the player pools when choosing an online poker room. What is the point in playing the best games if the sites that have them are plagued by security issues, reliability issues, small player pools, and problems with withdrawls? None of these make for a good poker room.

Never had any of these problems on stars.. Its a trade off, yes although Stars games are tougher you get a great site with fast withdrawals, great reliability, security, and support, big player pools, and a vast selection of games. Never had a problem with Pokerstars they have treated me great.

However, this is not the case with my experience with 888 where although the site had softer games, the client is plagued by connection issues. I withdrew my funds i had on there which took 14 days which is not good enough. Great fucking site the games were soft, but what is the point if the site has reliability issues.

I totally support the idea of playing at Stars because it's the best software, bigges player pool and most reliable site.
I tried playing at other sites and just tilted because software sucked.

I think it's fine to play at softer sites if you wanna make money. Jon takes that approach. But if you're trying to become a better player, it's better to play at the toughest and most comfortable site.

The day you're a good player you can just take it easy and play at other sites and kill everyone. You can even go play some live games and have fun. If you do it the other way, and just win money not improving your game due to playing weak villains', then the day you want to play somewhere else you're gonna face a brick wall.

They're just approaches. We have no formulas here. Live and let live, guys.

Completely agree man.

No condescending the winrate its great he can do that but if your idea of crushing is 5bb/100 then a normal winner will be at around 1/2bb/100 which is not a good way of playing poker! Their variance will be insane and will be able to go 200k hands without winning quite easily... If you are not SNE and have money in the bank why would you do that?!

Isildur played on stars in 2009! how can you compare him to now?! Phil Ivey was playing the highest stakes online when people who barely knew the rules were playing 5/10. Again you cna't compare to now!

I don't know why you guys are saying that it is best to play at the toughest site to improve :') I have improved my game the most over the past 3 months by miles and I'm not playing on Stars! The other time I improved my game was the first time I got coaching. The games you play mean nothing to your development. Sure you might learn quicker on Stars if you make no effort to watch videos, have coaching and do your own development but if you are doing these things then the site you play on mean nothing.

Also this is a very clear point. Lets say we could measure the toughness of the games and stars 25nl was the same as 100nl on Unibet/Sky/PKR/Microgaming. Well on stars you are break even at 25nl but on these site you grind up to 100nl and then learn. You have improved anyway as the tougher players at 50nl will be similar so you play 4x higher and learn at the same rate except you are making more money in the process.

In regards to software I mean facepalm! Other sites software is fine ok some suck but most I love as much as stars and it doesn't effect my winrate. Security wise: all poker sites are regulated and they make so much money by playing by the rules doing something else would be just silly. The government are my only worry but in the UK it's not going to be banned in the near future :')

Therefore imo none of the points you make for playing on Stars are valid and I'm not just making it up :') I played on Stars for years probably 400-500k hands and was int eh same boat as all of you. Ask Jon about me and he will say the same.

Also, playing tougher players forces you to work harder at your game in order to beat them you need to think outside the box which is definitely good for your poker development. You don't get this with recreational players. As for the games on Stars they are more beatable than you're giving it credit for. You just need to work a little harder to do so.

Totally agree with this.

There will be tough players everywhere though. My coach plays 200nl as his normal stake but when there aren't as many games going plays 50nl and even 25nl and he has pointed out others who do so also when he is sweating me or me sweating him. The games are sure beatable but having an ego about you wanting to beat the best isn't going to be productive most of the time. What should motivate you to work on your game is being able to move up stake and play and win for more money not being able to beat 25nl on stars for 6bb/100 and showing off about it.

Wow this escalated quickly, most traffic I've every had on my journey and I wasn't even involved. Lets all just chill out a bit no?

Stars is good for some. Harder, but if that challenge encourages you to learn and not just grind then that works. Software, customer service, withdrawals all matter I think. There are some good places elsewhere but there is equally some total trash. Someone mentioned 888 and they are the nuts for tilting, shitty software. I like Stars for all these reasons. However its not the best for building a roll and the profit per hour I make there is lower.

I intend to play Stars for all those good reasons. At the point the RB drops (due to the structure) such that those benefits aren't covering the profit differnce anymore I will move. Probably to PKR this time. Stars is great while I'm trying to change my game so I don't need to waste headspace on disconnections, or no top up, or HUD failing or whatever. Once I am happy with it, I then move somewhere more profitable to see how it runs.

Play or don't play where you want. Tough players encourage some and make them raise their game and tilt others. Weak software tilts some and not others.

Oh and apropos of nothing much, I'd take 2bb/100 on NL500 over 3m hands. Thats like $300k per RB and on SNE I'm guessing thats not shabby either! Variance is a bitch at 2bb/100 but having half a milly in the bank softens the blow I bet.

Just startes writing this on Minerboys thread but I liked it so will pop it here too. I paraphrased it just a bit.

'If' by Rudyard Kipling

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on variance,
If you can trust your line when all men doubt it,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be bored into opening 72o,
Or being bluffed, don’t deal in bluffs,
Or being hated, don’t give way to trashtalking,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by 2+2 forum regs to make a trap for fools,
Or watch your poker bankroll, broken,
And stoop and build it back up back at NL10:

You'll be a winner over a decent sample my son."

Emotive and rich. If that doesn't make you hear Jerusalem in the background then you're not English.